Interview with our Project and Program Consultant, Luciano Ramos.
Interview, transcription and editing: Bruna de Oliveira Martins
Luciano Ramos is a black man, a historian by training and a specialist in public policies, Programs and Projects Consultant for Promundo, author of the children's book Quinzinho and, recently, he was chosen by UNESCO along with other men to be one of the ambassadors of the Hombres campaign, Positively , due to her trajectory and activism in favor of gender equality and positive masculinities. And the appointment is not surprising, since Luciano's career is quite significant and demonstrates great knowledge in the areas. In order to learn more about the award, the campaign and, above all, a little about Luciano's journey, we reproduce here an interview carried out after the election was announced.
Luciano Ramos, in training held in 2019
1 – To begin with, we would like to know what award you received and what the process was like? Was there any type of submission to any notice, project or program?
Luciano: It's a notice, but it's a notice that starts from an indication. I received a recommendation from an organization called Usina da Imaginação , which was made because they knew me through a common funder of Promundo projects over many years, the Bernard Van Leer Foundation, and because I had participated in some Promundo events. Usina da Imaginação as seminars, meetings to exchange knowledge when the themes are masculinity and fatherhood. That's why my name was suggested and I made myself available to participate in the process. The award refers to being recognized as a model of positive masculinity in Brazil and being an ambassador for the topic with other men from other countries, through this program and this UNESCO campaign.
2. We know that two themes you have worked on most in your professional career are black masculinities and black fatherhood. Those would be your main focuses, right? Does the prize refer to these clippings?
Luciano: In fact, the award does not have this ethnic-racial focus, it is something comprehensive. It’s the theme [of masculinity and fatherhood] expanded. It is obvious that, without a doubt, having this position with the ethnic-racial perspective is important for me and these were some of the points I highlighted in my interview [with UNESCO]. Yes, without a doubt, when I'm talking about masculinity and fatherhood, I'm talking to all men and all fathers, but it's been an important militant process for me, discussing these themes with a racial focus and I've done this both on the topic of masculinity and the theme of fatherhood. But the notice as a whole did not talk about black fatherhood and black masculinity. He talked about masculinity and fatherhood and, in this sense, we are the ones who bring this intersectionality.
On the other hand, and this is a very important point: what UNESCO was looking for in this process were also men who discuss masculinity and paternity with a view to gender equality, bringing it as a central point. It's a very important point to think about, as we don't talk about masculinity or fatherhood to make us men feel more comfortable. Talking about fatherhood or masculinity, for me, has the objective of doing so to achieve gender equity and, at the end of this journey, achieving gender equality. Because, even so, no matter how much this model of sexist masculinity ends up affecting men's daily lives, first and foremost it is harmful and violent for women and the LGBTQIA+ population. So that's why I work with the theme of masculinity: so that we can look at it in this context, giving it more importance.
3) The link between gender equality, fatherhood and masculinity is not clear to everyone. Since this is something very abstract in the conceptual sense, because the connection between thinking about masculinity and fatherhood and, simultaneously, thinking about gender equity is not that direct for many people and it is complex to think about the implications that this has on the daily lives of women. people. The connection is not evident to everyone. If someone who is a layman on the subject asked you, how would you explain in a simple and direct way the relationship between masculinity and fatherhood and gender equity?
Luciano: So, last month, which was fatherhood month, I wasn't able to produce much other than projects linked to Promundo. But I wrote a letter from “a father of a girl” speaking to other parents. And I'm talking about this because it's going to get me to the place you're asking me about. In this letter I wrote as a girl's father, worried about the world my daughter will encounter. Like this,
“look that night I woke up in the middle of a nightmare because my daughter looked at me crying saying that she can't go out at night because she could be sexually assaulted, she could be raped. She told me that, even though she studies hard, she won't find a job market that values her work the way it should be valued. She also told me that the relationships she may establish, if they are heterosexual relationships, will be relationships that run the risk of being very violent and she runs the risk of being disrespected by that partner. And if it is a homosexual relationship, she runs the risk of being killed by this society that does not accept lesbian women and, if it is a bisexual relationship, too. She runs the risk of not being understood within this model of society.”
The text also had other aspects, it spoke about other areas of human life. In this text, I also said: “Look, you who are the father of a boy, you need to educate your son. Because there's no point in doing this in my house, because I can't raise my daughter in a bubble. And you, the father of a girl, also need to be aware of this process to provide a more equal education because your daughter will encounter this world.”
Well, directly answering your question, when we think about fatherhood, masculinity, gender equity and gender equality, we are thinking about a world where relationships are established in a different way, where they are established from a new place . At the same time, without a doubt, if we achieve gender equality we will be able to have boys who will be educated in a different way: we will have boys being able to express their emotions, we will have boys being able to understand that not being in that moment in a good workspace does not mean that it has failed or that it has gone wrong in life. We will have boys being educated to have a sexual practice that is not based on violence and that they will not be afraid to even say that they are not willing to perform a sexual practice. We will have boys who are able to establish relationships through dialogue and girls within society who are able to advance to their fullest because they are recognized, respected and empowered.
So, when talking about this, we mean that gender equality is very important for a new model of masculinity, that it is necessary and that it is urgent. Because it is not possible for us to be in 2021 with a model of masculinity that is so sexist and violent and that has such a horror of femininity, because, ultimately, that is what it is: a horror of femininity. When I tell others not to cry because “you're not a girl” or “walk straight because you're not a woman” or “I'll respect you because you're a man” and “look, what I'm saying is a man's word ”, so it’s this horror of the feminine, this horror of any expression of femininity. Why does this society kill gay men, for example? Because these gay men broke the “pact” of masculinity. How can someone break this pact of masculinity, you know? So these points are important for us to think about this issue of masculinity and gender equality, paternity and gender equality, which are essential.
4) Then two other questions: what were the selection criteria and which men are on the list with you? Since this award puts you in a network of men who are thinking about masculinity, what caught your attention when choosing these men? What connects you with the trajectory of these men? And about the name of the campaign: “hombres positively”, what, in your view, could “positively” mean?
Luciano: Actually, I still don't know the other men. We should have a meeting in the next few days to meet these other people. The only information we have is that a video I recorded, an interview I did with a UNESCO group, will be presented at the UNESCO International Assembly between October or November of this year. It seems to me that there is also a small participation in this assembly to talk a little about the topic and I am very interested in knowing who these other people are from other places in the world.
Also when you ask about the theme of the campaign, I find it super interesting that UNESCO brings the theme of masculinity so strongly into UNESCO itself. UNESCO already works with the theme of gender equality in terms of goal five of the SDGs [Sustainable Development Goals], but it comes more strongly now from masculinity. I think the theme of masculinity is the big theme of this century. Because, more than ever, it is now understood that it is not possible to work on gender equality and gender equity without bringing the issue of masculinity to the center of the debate, because otherwise you will only work on female empowerment and, I always say this: no There is little that is up for debate.
Female empowerment has to be done, it has to be worked on, but we also have to work with the men who are the perpetrators of violence. If we don't work on this part, women will be overwhelmed to deal with everything they suffer from violence and at some point they will still have to deal with interacting with these violent individuals. And here I am talking about “relating” in the broadest sense of the word, whether in the job market, in social life, at home, or in intimate relationships for women who are in heterosexual relationships.
So, what are we predicting? Looking at masculinity positively is necessary, it is necessary and it is past time. And another important point that, in this sense, UNESCO recognized and which is something that in Promundo's work we have recognized for a long time is that men follow the examples of other men, men listen to other men, the more humane the My closest practice is with these men.
I'm always very afraid when someone puts me in a position as an expert on the topic, because the expert often seems like someone very far from what that individual's reality is. That thing like “come live my life to see if you will continue making this speech”, is a bit like that. In this sense, I would even say that I am a sexist in deconstruction. All the time I'm learning, all the time I'm slipping and coming back and I'm trying to put it into practice because it's this: from the moment I think I know everything about the topic, I distance myself from people. And that is not the intention.
5) Now, we would like to know a little about the relationship with the award itself and with Promundo, because at Promundo you work in several areas and, despite being a program consultant, you also work as a social educator, as a person who works along with the methodologies, which reviews the methodologies. You are dealing with various issues and individuals from different contexts, including dealing with people who are in socially vulnerable contexts. Thinking about your work in the third sector and at Promundo specifically, how do you see the award and how it impacts the work we do at Promundo? Do you think your choice has to do with any methodology, project or work that we do that connects with UNESCO's proposal?
Luciano: I'm going to divide the answer into two parts, because you covered a lot of things. First, I could do more bureaucratic, office and management work and just stick with it. But I'm interested in the field, I'm interested in going to give training in Manaus, I'm interested in going to give training in Rio Grande do Sul, it interests me. Just as I'm interested in going to a community, going here to Morro dos Prazeres in Rio de Janeiro, which is where we are developing a community project to understand this work developing. And how interested I am in going to Ilha do Governador to do a fatherhood project to do workshops with men. This interests me a lot. It interests me because I think that's where I find the possibilities of making innovations in the material we have or in the materials we have. When, for example, I went to the field in 2018, 2019, I saw that men were wanting to discuss postpartum sexual life, you know? That it was something very new and that we didn't have within Program P, but that for men it was extremely necessary and important. This even created a conflict in the relationships they had with their partners, because there was little dialogue about the topic. Just like when I go to the countryside, I sometimes realize that this methodology we have is wonderful, but it doesn't communicate that much with men who are in this social class.
So, this is important to me, just as it is important to provide training for social assistance professionals. This is necessary for my work, because program coordination is also this: it takes a while, obviously, when you stay there in a room, writing, managing the processes, but it also requires going to the field and understanding how the field is working.
I necessarily like it when there is a new methodology and going out there and implementing that methodology to see how it is working. And I think this sensitizes us too, I think every manager has to go to the field to understand how the field works, because otherwise you will be trapped by the office space.
Now, when we are talking about the award and Promundo, it has everything to do with it, because it is Promundo that gives me the dimension of being able to do what I do today in a national environment, it is Promundo that gives me, through history and due to the capillarity it has, the ability to dialogue with Brazil and other countries. And then yes, without a doubt, I will also be doing some other actions in parallel, such as the children's book [Quinzinho] itself, which manages to talk about masculinity that manages to talk about masculinity to children in early childhood.
Book Quinzinho, by Luciano Ramos. You can purchase the book on the Editora Travessa website
But without a doubt, the one who inaugurates the topic of masculinity for me is Promundo, so it is through Promundo that I arrive at the topic of masculinity and fatherhood and it is there that I develop myself to advance in several areas. And I think the award isn't just mine, it belongs to a lot of people because I didn't build it alone, it's not possible to do this alone. He's a little bit of all of that.
6) Lastly, to finish, we have already talked about your professional career and that, in a certain way, it is mixed with activism. But on a personal level, we wanted to know how this impacts you as a father of a girl and as a man who has relationships with women and is married, considering this sexist background resulting from a sexist social structure. How does this personally affect you, not only the award itself, but your entire journey with masculinity and fatherhood?
In fact, it is very difficult. I thought about this today when I was leaving the house. I think the award gives me an additional responsibility and that responsibility is to be able to execute a more equitable masculinity. But, we are raised and taught, socialized in an extremely sexist society. Breaking this pact of machismo is something very violent, it's something very difficult, it's something very painful. It's something very painful, firstly because machismo is seductive, it's comfortable and it's pleasurable, you know? I always say: be wary of a man who starts by saying “no, because machismo is just suffering”. He is not. It's comfortable, it's pleasurable and it's extremely seductive.
You are invited to be applauded in a circle of friends all the time, you are part of a logic of power or reproduction of power. So when you are a black man, especially, and we are talking about hegemonic and subaltern masculinities, we are talking about the reproduction of power. But it is an invitation that, for example, white masculinity makes to black masculinity all the time that is like this: “do it this way, do it this way, do it this way” that you will reach a place of power. And then there's a whole game put into it, you'll never get there. When you become aware of it, it also causes suffering. But you are invited to this place all the time, and then in everyday life this is very difficult because there is an egocentric, egoic issue within this which is like “ah, if I did something that society says is for women to do, I I need to be applauded for this,” so you wait for the applause.
And you're going to break away from that and when you break away from that, people want to put you in that place all the time. And we [Luciano and wife] have a division of labor at home and with the baby that is very 50/50. And it's a total 50/50, we divide everything, from who will prepare the milk in the morning and who will give the milk in the morning. So, we share all of this. When working at home, who will stay in the morning and who will stay in the afternoon? All of this is placed within the relationship.
Other than that, in the relationship with my partner, it's even more difficult because we are invited all the time to bring this machismo to the table. And it's very difficult, but we have a pact that is: when you're sexist, say you're being sexist. And as I'm also in an interracial relationship, we have a pact that's great, so when it's racist, say it was racist. So we put this on the table all the time, but racism and sexism are elements that are here all the time. She, as a white woman, is naturally racist. As a heterosexual man, I am naturally sexist.
We are there all the time, dealing with these tensions and trying to create a healthy relationship environment. It's tense, but it's necessary because when this comes up at home, we organize ourselves to put it out. But it's a process, it's a process because all the time you are asked not to fall into the idea of being ridiculed. Because there is a lot of this: “here comes the annoying guy who will talk about that topic or who will criticize us for this, this and this”.
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